The two really dont compare. Cumpston, Mike, "The .30 Carbine Blackhawk: Ruger's Enduring Dark Horse", "CARTRIDGE AND CHAMBER DRAWINGS CENTERFIRE RIFLE", "Rimless cartridges, Calibres of rifled long centre fire weapons for rimless cartridges", "BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch:: .357 Mag Results", "Liberator's Truimphal March Through An Ecstatic Island", "The .30 Carbine Blackhawk: Ruger's Enduring Dark Horse", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=.30_Carbine&oldid=1152171899, Winchester Repeating Arms Company cartridges, Articles with failed verification from July 2020, Pages using infobox firearm cartridge with unknown parameters, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 28 April 2023, at 17:05. Everybody agrees that the .358 Win. Wish I could find the article. Classified Ad (1000+), Search Full Text of Listings Federal does not market any of their .350 Legend options as elk cartridges. 7677 Winchester Model 94AE, 30-30, NRA limited to 500, engraved Deer on receiver Adjustable rear s Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber (7.62mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. Know those parts well. With these requirements in hand, Winchester's Edwin Pugsley chose to design the cartridge with a .30 caliber, 100120 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,000 feet per second (610m/s). [2], While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. And with Winchester, Ruger, Mossberg and other companies making bolt action rifle in 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster, maybe they could make a run of rifles in 351 WSL and 401 WSL too., with 5 and 10 round magazines. has been offered in just about every rifle action type ever conceived and a few handguns. I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. The Legend could certainly bring down an elk, but possible is not the same as ideal. If youre looking for a do-it-all cartridge, the .30-30 will likely serve you better. Considerations for Handloading World War II-Vintage Rifle Ammunition Apr 21, 2013. appearance wise, i am partial to the Winchester M94. Federal only offers two bullet weights for the Legend (160 grain and 180 grain). The following ammunition cartridge ballistics information and chart can be used to approximately compare .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester ammo rounds. loaded with a 180-grain Oryx bullet to the .358 Norma Mag. Thanks for your support. spent to get the military issue version of the carbine will be money well spent. A Poignant Historical Reminder, The Winchester Model 1907. Particularly not with all of the various chamberings and uppers you can get on the AR platform these days. Copyright 2023 Big Game Hunting Adventures LLC | All Rights Reserved, 25-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor vs 270: The Results Might Surprise You, 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester Debate Settled. Hard to find here in Canada. Weight-wise, the .30 Carbine is also a bit of a disappointment, clocking in at 12.70 grams per round of M2 .30 Carbine Ball ammunition, heavierthan the far more capable 5.5645. That higher BC allows the .30-30 to maintain a flatter trajectory and buck the wind more effectively. I wonder if any gunsmith has made a AR 15 in 351 WSL? factory load is a 250-grain Oryx bullet listed with a muzzle velocity of 2723 f.p.s. 350 Legend has more energy than the 351 WSL and less recoil than the 450 Bushmaster. The .35 Rem. The .351 WSL cartridge is a up-powered stand-in for the .44-40 or .45 Colt, throwing a 180 grain bullet (softpoint or FMJ) at 1900 fps. Loved by gun guys and rejected by the huddled masses, this is perhaps the most underappreciated cartridge of them all. Both of them had Long Tom 94's in 30-30 Winchesters. Realistically, the Winchester Model 1905 was only useful to control vermin around the farm or for taking small game. I have a 35 wsl and am going to pick up a 351 wsl next week. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, DOUBLE TRIGGERS, EXTRACTOR. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. This 180-grain load from Federal drops 9.4 inches at 200 yards and 34.1 inches at 300 yards. On some collecting sites, prices range around $100.00 box of 50, but earlier pristine condition boxes and with ammo go much higher. I have one, and I like it a lot. Plainfield Machine Corp. made a .30 caliber pistol from 1964 to 1983 named the "Enforcer". The record contains a few examples of carbine-aimed fire felling an enemy soldier at this distance or perhaps a little more. Shootability Many companies now offer bolt, semi-auto, and single-shot rifles chambered in the Legend, but the .30-30 can be found in the same variety. Its a good time to own a rifle chambered in the .350. Posts: 5,141 . The velocity and energy figures in this table are taken from various sources including the Federal, Remington, Weatherby and Winchester ammunition guides and the 9th Edition of the book Cartridges of the World by Frank C. Barnes and edited by M.L. By experience, they would come to handle it semiautomatically, but it took prolonged battle hardening to bring about this adjustment in the human equation. ARMSCORs RIA 5.0 ST semi-automatic 9 mm Luger pistol represents the companys first handgun to be designed and manufactured here in the United States. WOOD HAS A REPAIR AT THE WRIST. True .30 M1 Carbine and .30-30 Winchester ballistics information can vary widely from the displayed information, and it is important to understand that the particular characteristics of a given round can make a substantive difference in its true performance. Lever Action Rifles: Winchester .30-30 vs Marlin .30-30 SMOOTH PATINA METAL. Remington loads a 200-grain PSP Core-Lokt bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2775 f.p.s. For more detailed ballistics information please refer to the exact round in question or contact the manufacturer for the pertinent information. An M1 carbine design adapted to a rimless .357 Magnum round would be pretty neat but I can't see there being a big market for it today. But do you know the real-world differences between a standard cartridge and a Weatherby Sign in to access your profile, save content and more. Spl. THE USUAL CRACKS IN THE FORE END. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. No matter if its books, art or hunting cartridges, its only those with a deep understanding of the subject who can fully understand the greatness often buried in obscurity. .30-30 Win. vs. .35 Rem. - Caliber Battle | MeatEater Hunting Winchester still offers ammunition, but the guns are history. Winchester took the lessons learned from the Model 1905 in stride and incorporated some changes into the new Winchester Model 1907 rifle and the accompanying .351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL) cartridge they released a few years later. Where carbine fire had proven killing effect, approximately 95 percent of the time the target was dropped at less than 50 yards. The .358 Win. The .32 Self-Loading fired a 165 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (708 ft-lbs of energy) and the .35 Self-Loading fired a 180 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (772 ft-lbs of energy). They shot lever actions and bolt actions, and probably didnt understand semi auto rifles. While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. Thats a question I just dont understand. The .30 Carbine (7.6233mm) is a rimless carbine/rifle cartridge used in the M1 carbine introduced in the 1940s. The .351 WSL did grab a bit of fame, first as a popular rifle for prison guards and then as one of the rifles used to punch a lot of holes in Bonnie and Clydes automobile (although that accolade is in question). The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. Auction (19) Commonly known asthe Model 07, the Model 1907 rifle was also popular for law enforcement use. Just bought the 22 sl. into the deer woods, and I pine for what could have been. (For context, Federals highest-BC 6.5 Creedmoor clocks in at .607.). 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NICE BORE. Most commercially available loads for the .351 SL launched a 180 grain .351 caliber bullet at between 1,850 and 1,925 fps from a 20-inch barrel, yielding identical muzzle energy to the .30-30 when fired from a 20-inch barrel (rather than a manufacturer's long test barrel). "[8], U.S. Army specifications for the new cartridge mandated the caliber to be greater than .27, with an effective range of 300 yards or more, and a midrange trajectory ordinate of 18 inches (460mm) or less at 300 yards. Mag. Due to its blowback action, the rifle kicks like a mule. Winchester 351 Self-Loading: Truly Amazing! Remington continues to offer factory ammo, and its 200-grain factory load has a muzzle velocity of 2675 f.p.s., while the 250-grain loads muzzle velocity is 2400 f.p.s. While similar to the M1 carbine, it lacked the stock, thereby making it a handgun. Furthermore, the muzzle energy of a .30 M1 Carbine round averages out to 960 ft-lb, while a .30-30 Winchester round averages out to about 1890 ft-lb. In firearms with a blowback action like the Model 1903, the breech is not locked and depends on a balance between the cartridge pressure characteristics, the heavy breechblock, and a powerful recoil spring for reliable functioning. was simply a .308 Win. In 1966 there was a gold miner that was hunting with Dad and I. was initially chambered in Remingtons Model 8 autoloader, soon followed by the Model 14 pump-action. Right now, I think that the Browning BLR lever-action rifle is the only production gun left on the market in .358 Win. Deadshot Boxed Combo Shooting Bag - Unfilled. Using basically the same action, they introduced the Winchester Model 1910 semi-automatic rifle along with the .401 Winchester Self Loading (.401WSL) in the spring of 1910. Hornady Custom: 2018 fps. 351 winchester for sale on GunsAmerica. Buy a 351 winchester A 10 mph crosswind will move the bullet 8.9 inches and 21.6 inches at those distances. The first cartridges were made by turning down rims on .32SL cases and loading with .308 caliber bullets which had a similar profile to those of the U.S. military .45 ACP bullets. Bottom line? With a 200-grain bullet at 2460 f.p.s., it is a heavy-hitter on whitetails. Probably over half the Model 1907 and 1910 rifles Ive examined over the years have a cracked forearm. Accuracy was always regarded as fair at best from Model 07 carbines. But these arent normal times. I believe it never will. Itsnodawayitustabe Registered Joined Apr 12, 2016 You want to look for a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm. Try Buffalo arms in Idaho for brass and bullets for reloading. 26" Barrel. The leadership at Winchester realized that a large untapped market existed for the winner of the autoloader race, so they were determined to beat Remington to the punch and release their self-loading rifle first. While the American mainstream wont accept the .35, they are not unloved. With six rounds on tap, it makes a good hog-hunting gun as long as heavy shoulder bone is avoided. Both the Legend and the .30-30 are most comfortable in the medium-to-large-game category, but the .30-30 offers a slightly wider array of bullet weights and applications. Winchester sold both soft point and FMJ ammunition for the .351 SL cartridge over the years. The .38 Smith & Wesson Special, designed in 1898, rocked the handgun realm with its ballistic performance making it a cartridge for the history books. This gun has a story. Copyright 2000-2023 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. The .351 SL proved popular with police and security forces as the only chambering available in the model 1907, and was used by France in both world wars. Neither Winchester cartridge was truly suitable for anything larger than small deer, and that might have been pushing it. USOG 60.7K subscribers Subscribe 40K views 4 years ago Join me for a look at another great investment rifle. Townsend Whelen praised it as a "good cartridge for deer and similar game in close timber."[3]. As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. Please note, the following information reflects the estimated average ballistics for each caliber and does not pertain to a particular manufacturer, bullet weight, or jacketing type. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguably the first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. Even though Winchester developed a round suitable for straight blowback actions, the rifle they eventually submitted designed by William Roemer and Fred Humeston, and based on the work done by convict David Marshall Williams was a gas-operated, locked breech design. America's Rejected Caliber | An Official Journal Of The NRA WINCHESTER 1907 351. The .351 Winchester fired the same 180 grain bullet as the .35 SL, but at a considerably higher velocity of 1,850 feet per second (1,368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy). Every time I use it I ask myself, Whats not to like? Beats me, but nobody liked it enough to keep it in production. Moderate, safe, bland and predictable. .351 s.l. Ive repaired several successfully. Sell your 351 winchester for FREE today on GunsAmerica! Old School Gun Test: Winchester Model 1907 .351 SL Why the public abandoned it so quickly is a mystery to me. in its NoslerCustom line with a 225-grain Partition bullet at 2550 f.p.s. About 1916 vintage. The M1 used an unusual gas-operated system designed for a special .30 caliber cartridge. .351 Winchester Self-Loading - Wikipedia Perhaps thats how it should be, the masses rarely embrace true greatness. All Types (1000+) This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. I reload for both the 351 and 401 win sl, they do quite well, and are a hoot to shoot. Manufacturer  Smith & WessonbrbrModel  Model 351 PDbrbrSKU 106228brbrCaliber  .22 MagnumbrbrBarrel 1.875 Stainless SteelbrbrCylinder  Aluminum AlloybrbrOverall L Smith & Wesson 103351 Model 351 Classic 22 Mag 7rd 1.88" Black Stainless Steel Barrel Matte Black Aluminum Cylinder & Frame with Black Polymer Grip & No Internal Lock MFR # 103351 (103351) New Smith & Wesson Model 351 Classic chambered in 22 Mag. zero-we see that contrary to popular belief, a 35-caliber can be a long-range cartridge. and a 250-grain Partition load with a muzzle velocity of 2550 f.p.s. Another comparison is a .357 Magnum cartridge fired from an 18" rifle barrel, which has a muzzle velocity range from about 1,7182,092ft/s (524638m/s) with energies at 7201,215ftlbf (9761,647J) for a 110gr (7.1g) bullet at the low end and a 125gr (8.1g) bullet on the high end.[11]. [4] When compared to other medium bore rounds, the .351 SL is closer in power to the .35 Remington (200 grain .358 bullet at 1,950 to 2,000 fps from a 20-inch barrel) than it is to the .357 Magnum carbine (158 grain bullet at about 1,800 fps). Show Only Non-Guns. Most have had an active life in the woods earning their keep, not being just stored away in the closet. This is the Winchester 61 chambered in .22LR Long Rifle with a blued metal with a length of 23 1/2in. Unfortunately for Winchester, the Model 10 was not a good seller and the company only produced about 20,000 produced before dropping it from production in 1936. The quest for an acceptable .35 has inspired such impotent wastes as the .35 Winchester Self Loader, once labeled a candidate for the title: Worlds Most Useless Center-Fire Rifle Cartridge.. The .358 Norma Mag. from a 20" barrel. Made from premium-grade, vegetable-tanned leather, the Burdette Custom Holsters Detective SA-35 holster is a custom outside-the-waistband (OWB) model for the Springfield Armory SA-35 semi-automatic pistol. This 170-grain .30-30, for instance, drops 7.7 inches at 200 yards and 26.6 inches at 300 yards. 95% BARRELS, 85% RECEIVER AND N WINCHESTER 1400 20GA 28 MOD. The 357 Magnum fired a 158 gr SP at 1240 fps. Several manufacturers submitted proposals, and Winchester's little "United States Carbine, Caliber .30, M1," or, more simply, the M1 carbine, was the winning design. The .401 WSL fired a 200 grain .406caliber soft point bullet at 2,140 feet per second for a walloping 2,034 ft-lbs of energy. Show Only Guns [1], The 835mm cartridge of the Ribeyrolles M1918 was based on the .351 SL. MADE IN 1911. Head to Head: 350 Legend vs. .35 Remington - An Official Journal Of The NRA Versatility refers to the range of animals that could be realistically harvested with a cartridge. If the .35 Rem. Among Federals offerings, the highest BC for a .350 Legend is .259 while the highest BC for a .30-30 is .313. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. The .30-30 Winchester and .35 Remington won't break any speed recordsthere's no doubt about that. Winchester also produced a load firing a 250 grain bullet at 1,870 feet per second (1,942 ft-lbs of energy). is on the threatened list, this one is on a path to extinction. Youre also more likely to find a rifle in .30-30, especially in the used market. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. The ammunition situation is a little better than the rifles. Why the .35 Rem. Mag., and I think thats the only current production rifle in that cartridge. The Rifle In America (p728, 730-731, & 733) was used as a referencefor the history of the cartridges discussed as well as their ballistic data. The only energy foot/pounds that were calculated were for the Hornady Custom, which had the highest mean velocity. Hopefully the forearm wood isn't splintered up. He became convinced that faster, flatter-shooting cartridges would take game more reliably, and the resulting line of Weatherby Magnum cartridges has been doing just that since he founded Weatherby in 1945. I have fired them all except the .22waiting for some ammo. The M2 carbine was introduced late in World War II with a selective-fire switch allowing optional fully automatic fire at a rather high rate (850900 rpm) and a 30-round magazine. For quality hunting ammunition, expect to pay $30-$45 for a box of 20. In 1968 the 600 Magnum was replaced by the Model 660 Magnum, which featured a 20-inch barrel, but it was never a big seller, and Remington dropped the rifles. Whitetail hunting strategies for the next generation. The .350 Legend has some catching up to do if it wants to rival its 127-year-old predecessor. Standard government-issue rounds reach over 1,500ft/s (460m/s), with factory loads, and handloads producing similar velocities or tuned for more efficient short-barrel performance without excessive blast. Buy 3, however, or any 3 non gun non ammo items, and shipping is Free on the entire order. The sad truth is that the active list of current .35-caliber rifles and cartridges is tragically short. Sold to Iver Johnson in 1983, the Enforcer continued in production until 1986. Townsend Whelen wrote back 100 years ago that the 32 WSL and 35 WSL were good deer cartridges for their ranges. Access the newest seasons of MeatEater, save content, and join in discussions with the Crew and others in the MeatEater community. However, the calibers available in the Model 1905, the .32 Self Loading (.32 SL) and the .35 Self Loading (.35 SL), were realistically pretty underpowered for satisfactory use on big game. Winchester Rifles - Semi-Auto Pre-War for sale - Guns International That seems to happen a bunch to the rifles that had an active life! Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351 Nominally they weighed 180 grains, were usually jacketed softpoints and were propelled from the 20-inch barrel of the Model 1907 at about 1,800 fps. This listing is for ONE Magazine. Cartridges are (usually) widely available and dont cost more than the .350 Legend. was included in that party is a mystery, as it had no Winchester counterpart. Caliber Battle: .30-30 Win. vs. .350 Legend | MeatEater Hunting 2 - The lighter bullet of the .30 Carbine made for much lighter ammunition. But they are so few in number that no general conclusion can be drawn from them. The .350 Legend is popular enough to justify continued production but not popular enough that the shelves are bare. The .350 wins that power matchup, but this 170-grain .30-30 option offers 1,827 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while this heavier, 180-grain .350 Legend only produces 1,762 ft.-lbs. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. Another article, said at first Winchester wanted to use the 32 WSL for WW2, but military brass wanted 30 caliber, so Winchester designed the 30 Carbine, still popular today. Versatility Still, I hope its clear how closely these cartridges stack up. Each round was a straight-walled, semi-rimmed cartridge firing a round-nosed bullet at modest pressure, just like the .30 Carbine. He can be reached via email at [emailprotected], being one of the very first* intermediate calibers. Paul tests 357 magnum against 30 carbine out of a couple revolvers.Shirts and patches: https://www.tristartrading.com/collections/paul-harrell-official-store. They truly were ahead of their time, as they were short magnums back when being a short magnum wasnt cool. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. 26" Barrel. As a result, it has approximately 41% higher muzzle velocity with 27% more impact energy than the parent .32 WSL cartridge. Please enable javascript before you are allowed to see this page. WITH BAYONET.
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